Let's Talk! Autism in South Korean Media featuirng Anna on 01/03/25

Preface

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk. Let’s Talk is a digital space for students at PCC experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of Portland Community College, PCC Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, pcc.edu/DCA, on Spotify, and on XRay, 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Community Radio, 90.7 FM

Episode Intro - Meeting the Guest

Amanda: Welcome to today's Let's Talk Autism podcast. I am your host and producer Amanda, and I was joined today by my guest Anna, who discussed how autism is treated in South Korea in societal and cultural contexts. I have been excited to explore neurodivergence in different countries for some time now, and Anna's energy and passion was a great way to start off. Among the facets explored included celebrity culture, how autism is portrayed in the media, and how disability is actually treated in society. I hope you enjoy today's conversation as much as I did. Thank you for joining us for Let's Talk Autism! I'm the host and producer, Amanda. And I am joined today by Anna, who is going to have an awesome conversation with me about autism in South Korea. I always find it interesting how disability, especially autism, is treated in different cultures. So thank you so much for joining me today, Anna.

Anna: Yeah, I'm actually really excited to. I was getting prepared for this. I was like, "Ooh, I got all this info. Let's go!" 

Amanda: So my name is Amanda. I use she/her pronouns. I'm finishing up an animal science degree at Oregon State, I'm applying to veterinary school, and I was diagnosed with autism at 31.

Anna: Hi, I'm Anna. I'm a Sonic Arts and Music major at PCC and I go with she/her pronouns. I'm actually dyslexic and I also have deplexia. But for me, autism and ADHD is something I'm really passionate about, and Korea, because my partner, he's a musician from South Korea, he's actually has autism and ADHD, and his life has been really a struggle with the community not accepting him, telling him he shouldn't be doing certain things, him trying to cope with it in different ways. When I first met him, he was totally frozen, he had no feelings at all on the outside. Nowadays, he uses more like a joking method, but very few people understand him. A lot of people treat him really poorly, and I'm always the biggest advocate for him, so this is my normal ground. It's how Korea portrays people with a disability and how people are looking at, people in the music and in the acting realm, what they are portraying them as in Korea. So that's really where I come from because I'm the biggest advocate for it. I'm the person that really started the movement of acceptance with my partner and with my friends, helping them cope with their disabilities. I'm also the biggest person that helped with my partner's entertainment center to get this movement of understanding. They know that I'm a force to be reckoned with. 

Amanda: Thank you. I would definitely agree that you're a force to be reckoned with. Even from your first podcast with me, you're very passionate, you're very strong willed. And I would say your partner is very lucky to have you as an advocate, and it reminds me of my own partner. It took a while for her to really open up and get comfortable with me as well, and [talk] about her autism. And I'm not saying I'm always perfect with my own autism. And there's probably moments where you're kind of painful with dyslexia. But that's how it is, and all we can do is keep going, you know?

Anna: I think for us, we need another person to help guide us through some stuff, 'cause, we're very vulnerable to the world. And they're going to tell us you need to be in a box or you need to be this way. But if we have somebody else to help us, it always makes it better in the long run. So, I think it's like a partnership.

Autistic Experience in South Korea

Amanda: How is autism treated in South Korea? How are people treated when they disclose, and how common is it that people disclose their disabilities in South Korea to begin with?

Anna: So let's talk about the broad spectrum of disability in Korea, because really it's all of them. The idea of disability in Korea is that you're shunned. In South Korea, there's a shun culture, meaning if you're different, if we just don't like you, we'll shun you. And this becomes a really big problem, because if something happens or if you are disabled, you have no value to us. To the point that your parents take care of you, you just stay at home, you can't get a job, you can't go anywhere, it gets really bad. It actually is kind of portrayed in the K-Dramas that have autism or a disability. There is the shun culture and there is also this crazy idea that if we can't take care of you and we can't handle you, we're going to make you go to a mental institution. It's almost like in the old days when anybody who had a disability, anybody who was a little funky in their thinking, they would be put into asylum. It's really the same idea. It's really sad. And the idea of when we get into mental disabilities, learning disabilities, they just say we just need to help you. You need somebody with you. A lot of the people will not disclose or tell anybody that they have a disability. What's really sad is if they tell anybody they have a disability, they might be able to go to college, but they will not graduate because the colleges will literally deny them access to graduating. They might not even get into the top universities. There is [this] idea that there's the top 10, and if you don't get into one of the top 10, then you're nothing. And if you do get into one of the top 10, it goes by rank. So you have the first one, which is Seoul National University. And then there's the University of Seoul, South Korea, and then it goes down. And it's really crazy to that aspect that everything is a competition. You have to be the fittest and it has made it really bad for people in South Korea to the point that the suicide rate is crazy high. It's the highest in any country and people are like, oh it's because of bullying or because they're just really depressed, because of work or something. But really, it's also because most people have disabilities. Most people cannot cope with things. If you have depression, anxiety, they're not really going to help you. I had to help a friend of mine who was older than me when I was in high school and he was in Korea and nobody was going to help him. He was shunned, he had depression and anxiety, he was going through life and he was on the break of committing suicide. I had to come in and say, hey, you value, you matter, and I really helped him and now he's like really clingy to me because of that. In Korea, support is not there. People look at you and they don't really support you. They just laugh at you or they make fun of you, or they just see you as different, and they just turn their backs against you. There's no support at all and when you are disabled, you just stay at home, don't do anything. You shouldn't have a job, you shouldn't be anything. Which is the wrong mentality in the first place, because there's people that are able, body and mind that can do things and we need everyone's aspect. And when it comes to people who are not physically disabled, that also becomes a shady spot because they don't acknowledge that when it comes to the military. In South Korea, when you're around your late twenties, they want you to go for a military service for around a year and a half now, before it was two years. And, they don't have anything to help these people. They say, you're just like all the rest, we're going to put you in here. First off, you're going to boot camp, you're literally going to training to be a soldier. They're going to bulldoze you, they might sexually assault you, they might do whatever. and this is really wrong and they don't have any way to help people. If they're going to do this and they're not going to acknowledge these people have a disability in the first place and then you put them in something that can make it even worse, that's a problem. I think what was really crazy is my friends who are autistic, who have depression or anxiety, they go into the military. And I'm like, "Why are you allowing them in here? This is really wrong and they don't have any way to help people. They're not going to acknowledge these people have a disability in the first place and then you put them in something that can make it even worse." That's a problem. Because first off, somebody who is on the brink of a panic attack, or has suicidal thoughts, should not have a gun, should not know how to load a gun, should not be even around that, because they will probably kill themselves. And I think this is ridiculous, these are the things that they are teaching them, and then they make them go every two to three years to go through first aid training. I guess that works if you're able-bodied in the first place. But on the other hand, if you're just giving them a lecture and they're not hands on, it's not going to help everyone. They're just going to look at the person like, Oh, they're down. What are we going to do? So they don't know how to teach people. They do not know how to show that it's acceptable for all people. And you can only get a job for people who are disabled with people who are disabled. They don't allow you to socialize or be in the community. And I think it's really interesting because me walking in there and I'm open about my disability. People just look at me and they're like, wait, what? And I'm like, yeah, this is a thing. People are like this in America, we will say who we are. My partner, he has to hint about disability because they won't understand that. If you told them, oh, I'm autistic or I'm dyslexic, they're going to look at you like, so what does that mean? They don't understand how to make a functioning working place for people with disabilities. You can't even go to a shopping mall, or a cafe or anywhere. Most people with disabilities can't go to these things. It's really crazy, because this is how Korea is. It's a place where we shun the impoverished, we shun the people who are disabled, and we say, if we can't help them, then just put them in an insane asylum. And I'm like that's not gonna help anyone. That actually makes it worse. 

Amanda: I think that's awesome that you have such a strong background in this knowledge, and it's awesome that the audience is hearing this. But to reiterate the question: autism is not treated well in South Korea is the attitude, right? 

Anna: It's not treated very well and it's not understood at all. They shunned any knowledge or understanding of it, to the point that you don't even know what it is and if you have it, you're shamed. You're shamed to have a disability, when you need a person with a disability to help you in the long run to make things. 'Cause a lot of people who are disabled are very creative and they actually have great minds and they understand things differently than others. So a lot of these people are going underground and not writing down they have a disability or not knowing they have a disability. I think a big thing is, a lot of times if you have a disability and you don't know your disability and other consequences with it, like other health issues or whatever, you'll die silently at home because you don't go to the doctor. This is becoming even more of a problem this year, because multiple people have died from unknown causes and a lot of them probably had a disability and it's really sad. This week, they put out a thing saying, oh, let's put girls in school earlier than boys because they're not marrying, they're not producing children anymore. And I'm like, that's not the issue here. A lot of the issues I've been hearing about is men have a higher chance to be violent, and there could be other causes, they don't understand their emotions because they have to be a perfect society. But nobody's perfect, and disability has played a big problem with this, it gets to this point where we don't understand why the issue is there in the first place, and we don't help people because we don't know how to feel sympathetic towards people or give any assurance. Somebody told my partner, hey, why don't you practice the speech you're gonna give? And he's like, I'm actually more a physical learner and then they were like, but, if you stutter, they're going to judge you, they're going to make fun of you, and he's laughing cause he's like, my partner always stutters and there's always something that's going to be off. It's a part of learning, it's a part of growing and he's explaining his concepts. He has changed from scared to be himself to where now he is like "I'm going to tell you my dreams, my passion, maybe they're not all put together so perfectly, but I'm going to show them. I don't know how to put them in bullet points, but I'm going to show you this. I'm going to show you my dreams, I'm going to show you my vision, I'm going to show you what I've been thinking." And maybe they're out of the box. But I'm okay with that because I know that at the end of the day, this is what I am and what I can do. Most people cannot open up like that. They are so scared that they've put themselves in a place where they're wearing a mask. 

Amanda: People who have autism, ADHD, or other non physical disabilities how often they even disclose because with the shun culture as you mentioned, would that even be a good idea in South Korea? When your partner did disclose, how was that for him? 

Anna: They pretty much puppy dog them. So when he disclosed that he had autism and ADHD to his friends, they were like, oh yeah, that makes sense, they didn't care. But to his company, his agency he's under, they cared so much that they will go on to his Instagram Lives and try and control him. He's different than other people. He doesn't take direct rules the same way, and they think oh we need to help him function in society and that's not how it works and he gets mad. They think, oh, you have to be baby all the time. You're acting so, out in the box, so we're going to try and control you and reel you in. So, if you're different and they see that, they tell you, oh, you need to change and you don't change, then they're going to try and control you. You have to be really strong to say, no, I'm not going to be controlled and I'm not going to be ruled by you and I'm going to try my hardest to be myself. And to him, it's a battle and he's like, "I'm going to leave soon because I don't want to be in this relationship with my company." He's very happy that this is going to happen because we're going to be trying to make our own entertainment center for everyone. It's this idea that if you tell you have a disability, like if you tell that you have autism, that's a lot of people, they know what autism is, but if you tell them dyslexia, they don't even know what that is. You can't even tell them, oh yeah, my partner's dyslexic. So, when it comes to autism, they do know now, but they're going to control you. They're going to control you to the point where you have no freedom or you need to be in this box. And if you don't conform to that, you're going to have a war on your hands trying to be different.

Official Public Stances on Disabilities

Amanda: I know that you mentioned in a previous conversation that autism was officially recognized in 2016. So, before that happened, were celebrities disclosing at all? And even after celebrities like your partner did disclose, did it become more publicly acceptable or not to be autistic?

Anna: Let's just say it has never been publicly acceptable to be autistic in a way, and still today, it's not. The only thing that is accepted is the title and the understanding of what's autistic in the sense of what the doctor would know. The original version of The Good Doctor is a really good explanation. They cut this out of the American one, but in the Korean one, what is the start of it, when he's being explained about his background and who he is. The one head, he's actually one of the people that took care of him when he was young. He's explaining his story, and he's explaining it as how a doctor would explain it. So they're given all the titles, like he's a special case of autistic. But through the story, what they're trying to do is say, "This is not how we describe autism. This is not autistic. This is not who he is. He's a human, he is different, he is disabled, but he can be many things and you don't call him what the scientists and the doctors want to call him. You call him who he is." And through the whole thing, we see other people with other disabilities. We get to understand how a person who is autistic can do many things and how powerful they can be. And how an actually good doctor is not really about the autistic person himself. It's supposed to be about the person who is saying, hey, guys, cool it. Let him be who he's going to be and let him work on this. And that was the actual idea of this story. But we took it and changed it when we come to America. And this is the idea, those doctors trying to convey these big words about how he is, and trying to put him on this pedestal and say, this is the percentile, they're looking at him like a graph or something. But that's not how it is, it's not supposed to be that way, but that's how their society thinks of it. So when it's like, "Hey, I'm going to be open about my disability," they don't know how to handle that. Honestly, a lot of people are not openly discussing if they have autism or ADHD or are dyslexic. They're just who they are. And I will tell you most, Idols or celebrities, majority of them have a disability. It's hidden in one way or another, or they don't know about it themselves because testing is not a big thing. It's rare to be tested for your disability. And it's really interesting because people will be like, oh yeah, you danced on tables when you were young and they don't perceive like, oh, that's a little odd. He ran through the whole airport when he was five years old. Why would he run all the way there in the first place? They don't think about that. They just think, "Oh, they're a little different. They're a little funny." So they're not seen as human with a disability. They're known as disabled or human and we need to think about that. You are either disabled or human, and the only way they would know that you are really disabled is if you are mainstream disabled. I think that's the problem, it's not how it works, it's like saying everyone has the same gender or whatever. 

Autism in the Mainstream

Amanda: I'm sorry to interrupt you, I was just wondering what mainstream autistic means in that context? 'Cause when you say mainstream autistic, I just think of the show that The Good Doctor was based on. When you say mainstream, are you talking about the media representation?

Anna: The mainstream, what is put out there, you know, how they're supposed to be really high on the autistic spectrum, maybe they're just really out there. Maybe not very verbal. Or they can't put things in place the same way. The ones that can't really function in society very well, that's what they're thinking of and that's when they know. Oh, yeah, you're autistic, and then if you're on the spectrum, but you can function in society you're not the idea of the image they put out, on TV, then they don't understand that. They don't comprehend that there's people of all types that are autistic.They don't think of a spectrum as much as a label. And they don't think of people as much as disabled.

Amanda: It's an interesting dichotomy, because on one hand, it sounds like they really want to shun the idea of autism and other disabilities, on the other hand, they have a show in which they're propping autistic people up. And I was kind of wondering if your partner and other celebrities that did disclose, were they ever propped up in the same way as that character was in that show, or did the companies try?

Anna: No, honestly, they don't care.

Amanda: Interesting, because you have this whole, almost like an autistic idol in South Korea, and you have celebrities who have these huge fan bases, like your partner, wouldn't that just make them even more popular, because that would make them more relatable, or am I completely misunderstanding this?

Anna: No, you're totally right, it's kind of funny because a lot of the people that I know that are his fans, they don't understand him because they don't show him as autistic. They just think, "Oh, he's just being funny," or whatever. They even put subs on his vlogs and the people who are in his company will say, oh, he's just funny or he has a very interesting way of wording things. And I'm like, dude, just say what he is and why he's doing this. This is what his brain's doing. And I'm not trying to say he's autistic or whatever, cause they need to speak that, but I'm trying to explain this because these people have no clue. They don't understand because they think he's just being a funny idol, or he's different in this silly way or his brain works differently. But we're all human here, and you're not getting the gist that he might have a disability and they don't want to say that. There's been a trend this year where I see famous new bands coming in and there's an autistic person and he'll walk down the stairs or whatever and there's loud screams and you can tell he's in pain or something and I'm like "Geez, they could have done something to help." But this is how the culture works, you help yourself that's what it is. My partner was saying, I want to make this concept for my next album, and they're like, "We don't understand that." But hey, this is how things work, this is how people's brains work, everyone is different. Luckily this last year, we've been starting to see a movement in Korea where we're trying to get people to speak about disabilities more. We just got our first ever disabled music group, and they are hard of hearing and they got a good turnout. A lot of it gravitates towards people with disability. So it's kind of weird when people understand that how in society, when they put a disabled person to be a broadcaster for the paralympics, but we won't have that for the weather or a news channel.

Amanda: So I don't understand this about South Korea, what is the point of even having shows like Good Doctor if they're not going to publicly accept autism or disability? And on that note, are there other shows like Good Doctor in South Korea that kind of put autistic people up on a pedestal? 

Anna: Extraordinary Attorney Woo was a popular show because it talked about people's disability, how the chemistry in their brain kind of works, how they can move around in society. But the funny part is when the producer comes out and he comes out with the actual girl that he was portraying that show on, the person very much has Down Syndrome. There's a very common OCD disorder in that show too. So it's not about one disability, but they have portrayed it as autistic only. Which kind of sucks because it's not about that in the first place. And why are they putting this out? A lot of it is for views, and a lot of it is because people in other countries watch this. A majority of Extraordinary Attorney Woo was on Netflix, the majority of Netflix is in America or in other countries. This is to make K-Pop look interesting to the public and everywhere. To understand that oh, yeah, this is what we want to condone and tell you about disability without saying this is not how it is in real life. They're making a fairy tale. It's a fairy tale for adults, and your inner kid, that is really just a story about how it should be, that's when you start getting a little messy, and that's what it's about. It's supposed to be entertainment. Another show that became really big it's not just about autistic people, but anybody who are neurodivergent, anybody who has a mental disability or learning disability. It's okay to not be okay. And that was about this nurse, getting into a relationship with a woman who's bipolar and he has to help his brother, who is extremely autistic. Very much what we would think from, Extraordinary Attorney Woo or the Good Doctor, that kind of portrayal, and it talks about how he gets in a breakdown. It is actually more explaining people and disability and explaining there's a problem. I think that's really interesting, that one is very different than the other ones, because it does talk about how they are treating the people in this idea and what's the difference about their disabilities as well? And it's talking about how doctors and nurses are working with people with disabilities and how a lot of the shunning culture works. And I think that's really interesting because if we put all three together, then you find the whole picture. Another one is Shining Inheritance, that's another show. And there's also moved to heaven, that's another thing about autism. All these shows are what we're seeing because they wanted to portray somebody who's autistic or somebody who's different, because they wanted to. They are fascinated into seeing other people with disability. In the old days in Europe, they would have all these disabled people and they would take them around on the first circuses. People would pay money just to see these disabled people cause they were different. And they wanted to see and they were, oh, that's so wonderful. And that's not wonderful. Those are humans. And some of their disabilities could have been treated if they got surgery or something. It's still the same thing today. They think this is fun entertainment, we're going to watch people who are disabled. 

Amanda: That is so interesting. It kind of blew my mind when you said that Good Doctor, the American version of Good Doctor was based on a Korean show, which is, Good Doctor in the same name. And when you said Extraordinary Attorney Woo, by any chance, is the Good Lawyer based on that show too? It was marketed as a spinoff of Good Doctor, and it was a female lawyer, and I just cringed so hard.

Anna: It's about a lawyer and she goes through all this stuff and also this relationship with this man and how she's not able to function in society. She doesn't know how things work and so this man kind of takes her hand and helps guides her through society. Her friend is also autistic and she's not the same as we would think from the good doctor or whatever. She has problems with sound and other things like that, but she can still function in society very well. She's able to do a lot of the same things, but you know, she still has a disability, and so they can work together. There's two autistic people working together. You see the two different sides of that, which you don't see in a lot of these other shows. And maybe he got into it and then maybe that's what he thought of attorney woo, because of that show. And then he saw that girl and then, you never know. 

How Autism is Communicated

Amanda: And it's also interesting how you bring up that show being on Netflix, and how you brought K-Pop into that point, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of this sounds like that South Korea kind of wants to make media that's palatable to all audiences, correct? 

Anna: It is. And the funny part about that is Korea has a lot of interesting society loopholes where they like to be popular. They like to be out there. But they also have this thing of being the head and forefront of technology. So we copy them. We go around and try to be better than them, but we aren't and then they're always out there and they're giving out and producing the hit tracks. But then there's also the problem of they're so out there sometimes people get mad to a point where they're like, oh, we don't want this. It's becoming too Americanized or globalized and we want it more sectioned to who we are because a lot of what Korea has been through, they were colonialized [sic] multiple times. China, Japan, and then America did it too. They're still people a little bit hesitant to be fully out there because they feel like they're gonna change. Some people just don't like change. But yes, Korea is known for being very globalized. A lot of K-Pop musicians, most of their fan bases are from outside of the country and it's very rare to find them that are just inside the country. Nowadays K-Pop is becoming more than just K-Pop. They can't even call it K-Pop anymore because it's global pop or whatever, because one of the K-Pop agencies made a Japanese girl group. They've made American girl groups. So they have made many different types that are not from Korea. And it's becoming this thing that whatever's the trend, they're going to take it. Whatever is out there, what's ever new, whatever is going to make some money they're going to take it. They're going to make it wherever they can take energy and put it into that and make a profit. They're going to do it. And Korea is really interesting in that way because in America, we don't have monopolies anymore, but Korea does and that's what they get a lot of their cash from. A lot of the monopolies, one of them is Lotte. They have Lotte World Mall. They have taken over E Mart. So, Lotte is a big one, and there was a fight over this because one of the bands, one of the musicians technically, their family owns Lotte. And it was, oh, now they're trying to get into this. This is a big thing, because to them, money is profit. Money made them go from where they were in world war two, where they were destroyed, to being a bustling community. But the problem is they don't want to have weakness. That's when it becomes really scary because weakness makes a man, it makes a person, it makes who we are. 'Cause we are weak. There's always going to be problems. Then if you don't think that disability is okay, then, you're lying to yourself because you have a culture where you have the best doctors, nurses, lawyers, some of the best in technology and you're using it for the people that are able minded, able bodied, non neurodivergent. You're putting all that energy to people who are, what you want is perfect, when perfect is not perfect in the first place. Where do we get all this stuff? It's like any other country to America, they would say, oh, this is going to be a wonderful place. But the Americans be like, no, this isn't that wonderful. And then they look at us like, oh, that's not that wonderful either. They come over here. It's the same thing for Americans and people in society. They have an infatuation because of K-Pop, K-Dramas that this is how society is going to work. And then they go to Korea and they realize that is not society at all. That's not how this works. It's not perfect. They wanted to portray something that is not what it is, and they want to make a profit from lying to people that their world is perfect. And to the point, they actually have a lot to say. Big businesses or companies, you can't slander them. If you're from a different country or if you're out of the country, you can talk about people. But if they're a big business, a big company, you can't slander them. You can't do that. 

Amanda: So, in this conversation, I know you mentioned one of the big companies. Is this considered slander, in the general sense that we're talking about them, or is it slander because it's technically a negative tone or context? What counts as slander in such a strict media culture like South Korea?

Anna: It could be anything. It could have been, their attitude was really bad, you know the other day and they act so posh, and whatever. Yeah, you can't say that about the person you can't go around and be verbally abusive to an entity in a community, in certain places that would be like, giving harm to a person or a business like suing them, verbally abusing them in different contexts. If it's like a person there's more lenience to it, but if it's a whole entity, you can't do that. Honestly, you can try to say, I'm gonna take you to court but because that person is so high up, they'll just silence you. You can say certain things about people that are the same standing as you or less. But if they're rich people, idols or whatever, you're doomed.

Bullying and Other Responses

Amanda: I haven't watched a lot of K-Dramas, but the ones I have watched, there's actually a really big commonality I've noticed with bullying. And that's the fact that the school takes it very offensively if bullying is reported against top performing students and it's only really taken seriously until a video of the bullying inevitably leaks out. 

Anna: This will sum it up: the government has to put out a thing saying, just put your hand up and say, stop bullying. Yeah, the thing is, there's so much bullying going on that it's very suicidal. They will not do anything. They don't know how to handle bullying in the first place. Like America, we have bullying prevention talks, it doesn't work but it's actually better than what they do. They don't even talk about it. Honestly, you can get really bad nasty bullies, to the point to make you feel like you're going to commit suicide. So now Korea is saying, we don't want anybody who has a bullying record to get a job. So if you bully anyone now, you can't get a job in Korea. And it became a big thing because a lot of K-Pop musicians were being accused from [sic] being bullied or bullies and then they shunned them. And that's where this shunned culture gets worse because it could be a false accusation. And because the company doesn't want to do anything. They'll say, we're just gonna end your contract here and you won't be anything and they shunned them. There's been a trend over this, about sexual assault, bullying, where people are trying to get money from this, idea, that we can give whatever slander we want, and then it becomes easy bucks. And that's why this idea really came across where they said, you can't slander anybody like this. It's because there's been destroyed people. There was this older gentleman, he was an actor and a couple of ladies said some false accusations. He was married and, they wanted to say some false accusations about him sexually assaulting them and he committed suicide. And after he committed suicide, they took those two ladies to court. And that's why they have this problem with it and bullying is just something that is really hounded. It's been a thing for a while and they just never done anything and then they thought, oh yeah, bullying is going to stop if we tell them they can't get a job or whatever. It's not going to fix anything because most of those people wouldn't even got a job because the job market is pretty bad because the population is declining because people with disabilities and other people are just not producing children anymore because nobody wants to be associated with men or women who have problems in any form. A lot of it is because they don't know how to take care of things. They want to shun people. They want to find a way to stop things like what was happening with these actors or other people when they were false accusations. But really what they did was hindered that because they took away their freedom of speech, freedom of rights because they didn't know how to handle that. They took the extreme to make the extreme go away. Why would you do that in the first place? But that's how they do it. I think a lot of the people in their Congress and in the blue house, that's what it is. So we have the white house in the United States and Korea, they have the blue house. I think a lot of them are disabled because how they're talking, how they're acting, very typical for people with disabilities in their hunches, and come off a little bit harsher than they should have been. And they can't vent who they are, or they can't make good ideas come out of it. When we start thinking everyone needs to be perfect, and they're not perfect. And they have so many people hiding their disability, that they're scared, to even talk about it. But then, they don't know how to vent their thoughts or vent their anger or to help themselves in the long run which will hinder themselves and hurt the whole community, in the whole country. And something America has worked on, we've worked on advocacy. We've worked on trying to help in certain ways and we've tried to keep somewhat a freedom of speech and know how to make policies that are able to not hinder people of all races or ethnicities but also to make things that are equally safe. Korea right now, doesn't have the same steps. They're a small republic, they got their ideas from us, but they don't have the same backing, the same knowledge, the same understanding. They don't have that system of how to put things in steps. So it becomes problematic, because now you have a disabled person coming in, typing up something and they don't understand these concepts and then it becomes a problem. It makes the whole country go down because we have no advocacy for people. We have no understanding of what people need or what we need to help them with. And we don't give rights to people who are disabled. We don't see them as humans. We try to deny them anything. And I think, the United States have [sic] done this and is still doing this, but a lot of it for us is we have been working really hard and the people themselves have spoken, we have some freedom of speech and Korea is now starting to become that. A lot of them were very conservative, kind of quiet. Protests were very vague, very scary thing. But, the newer generation is now speaking up about these things. And I applaud them, they are speaking up on political issues and situations like that. And the only thing is they're president right now is not the greatest. But they're trying to get to a place where they can speak and be who they are and I'm glad they're doing that. I think that if you want to make a community and you want to make a country be a country and function, you need to speak, you need the people's speech to come out, for a lot of the people that are hurting, they need also opportunities. So if K-Pop did actually have more people who were disabled and they were actually speaking about it and they actually started talking about their disability and doing some advocacy work, that would really help. But the lot of them don't know how to do that because Korea wasn't built on advocacy. It was never built in the idea of that like America has, where we can advocate for ourselves. They have been very reliant on help by others. So, when they started becoming independent, they didn't have the same tools as we had. So, if we get somebody like me to come over, who's more abrupt, sometimes that's a good thing because then if they start advocating for disability, more people might rile around that and might actually get to a point where bills can be made, things could change, where we can see a trend in the community for better. And that's what I really want to do, because I see there is that place where there's a lot of people that want that now, but they don't have a way to get there. And if we can give them a door, they can choose to open that door. That's the most important thing right now and that's really what I want to do. That's what is important for the disability community.

Anna and her Partner's Challenges

Amanda: With Korea's current culture around autism and disability, what are some of the challenges you and your partner anticipate?

Anna: Ooh, big challenges. First off, you need to think of where you're going to build and what community and aspects you are trying to achieve. Secondly, we have to think about: what is the people [sic] we want to bring in? So a lot of the issues with the entertainment community itself, you need good people to come in and work with you, and you need to be someone who is able to help and doesn't hinder and you need to be able to help around and work around business. You need to think about, who are you giving out to? Globally and in the community and what kind of music you wanna portray, what kind of people you want. So for us, we're not trying to get really young kids in the door. We want some of the older people that might've been persecuted before, like people who are disabled or whatever. For us getting out there is the biggest problem, we need to figure out, how we're going to go around with social media and what music, mic choices we're going to use. What kind of recording studios we're going to have, how we're going to build this whole thing, you know? When we get to that, where are we going to take it from there? What is our global appeal going to be? What is our idea of music and how do we want to portray it?

Amanda: Can I give my two cents on that?

Anna: Yeah.

Amanda: I think you and your partner have a pretty big advantage there because, correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of musicians in the entertainment industry as well as actors and other idols are neurodivergent themselves just because the rigid structure tends to actually work with their disability a little bit. If they have an environment where they can be open with their disability or they were rejected from their company because of that, I feel like you get a lot of people signed up with you pretty quickly. Because he's an established celebrity in South Korea, he already has a fan base and he'll also have other celebrity friends he can bring to the table, but maybe that's a little too presumptuous on my part.

Anna: Actually, his friend from when he was in high school, he's a recording artist, so he has his own recording studio, and he's worked with him many times. So we have people around. We have people lined up and I also think that there's gonna be a lot of people because he was a gen 3 idol so people know him. They respect him. He's worked with a lot of other idols because he was on a tv show, and he was doing music and dance with other idols. He was the person in charge of that. So they know about him. They're like, "Hey, yeah, we would love to make music with you." I think also if we get into not just in the music industry of K-Pop music, but we also get in Korean traditional music. Because a lot of the older generation likes that and if we can bring that back, cause it's crazy beautiful. We just don't have a lot of places and sources for that. If we can work with people, who are maybe doing opera or maybe acting on stage like musicals. If we can work with that, that's always great. We always have some K-Pop musicians do that sometimes if they're not mainstream. So if we can get into all different types and work around with that, that's always cool. I think that's what we're kind of going to achieve with that. With our, agency, we're not just going to be doing one thing, and there's going to be more people that will look at us like, hey, we really like how, you're working on this, how you're not so controlling because another thing in Korea, slavery. It's pretty much slavery, K-Pop. 

Harm in the K-Pop Industry

Amanda: There was an article or a few Youtube videos a while back discussing the K-Pop industry and just how the idols were basically treated like slaves. So please go ahead and discuss that. I don't think the audience really knows just how bad it is. 

Anna: So in Korea, what happens first: you say "Hey, I want to become a K-Pop idol." So you sign on for a contract with a recording entertainment center and they'll either accept you from the application or not. And when they accept you from the application, you go through a trial period from singing, dancing, acting, and if you get accepted from that, you get to go into a training mode. This training mode can be from five years to seven years, or it could be up to 10. Honestly, you might never get to debut. But when you debut, the proceeds from your first album are all paid by the entertainment center. But what happens is it becomes collateral damage, meaning it is in the red zone. So when we think of money, if you do not make the amount from your albums that was from the first debut, you're in the red and you're in debt. So until you can pay off that, you don't make any money. So a lot of K-Pop musicians will not make any money until they make up that debt. And that could be even from 10 years from now. It's how much money they used, how they're going to give that collateral damage, if they're going to add on the next year and the year after that, and which kind of albums you're making. And each entertainment center is different. Even afterwards , there's some entertainment centers, they say, "Oh, you pay everything because we don't have the money anymore," and now you're making so much money you can pay for it and then they're like, "Great, that's fine." But they use you as a face, you are a face. You have to diet and be this perfect size. You have to act a certain way. You have to sing a certain way. And then what happens is a lot of the musicians nowadays -- the younger ones -- they don't have vocal training the same way as they had in the old days. They were not talented the same way. We saw at Coachella this last year [sic]. People were commenting about it, hey, they're out of tune, they don't sing in the same way as we thought they were gonna be. A lot of that is because they love autotune, they love to do things, but they didn't teach them very much. They teach them very little personal vocal training. And, if you're an international idol, a lot of it will be Korean training. So how to speak in Korean, because I don't want you to speak English, and there's a lot of that. So you're a face, you are a name, you are a part of a band and you more or less don't make a lot of money, if at all. But if those people that are pretty rich, some of the people that are popular, like BTS for example, their agency is now only taking 1 percent of any money because they paid off all the debt. They have made more money than any company before them because of BTS and how much the sales are coming in, and they paid off all the debt from every album they made. So they don't have to worry about it. Now they have so much money, but a lot of companies, a lot of times they will never make the money back. And so that means like, 17. That's another famous group. They don't get paid much, to zilch because they don't make enough money back from that. And a lot of it, you are known as a money value and a face not as a human that is trying to make music and it's really hard and it can be very annoying. 

Amanda: I'm hoping you and your partner, can change that because it sounds like South Korea could really use it. I know we're about out of time, but one question I want to ask you is do you think your dream with your partner is possible right now because of a shift in culture in South Korea? 

Anna: I think it's more actually because of him. Honestly a lot of it is because has taken the catalyst and said, hey, you have a dream, I want that dream to come to fruition. I know where my emotions are. I know yours. I've seen the agencies. I've seen the place and I know what you're trying to get to. And a lot of it also is because the society is changing somewhat, but a lot of it is just because we have taken a stand to make change and we started not being in the box. So that means that they don't know how to handle us, so we can stand up and be something different. We can do something. He had power because he worked through this and when he got to the perfect part, he was able to stand. And when you're able to stand and do what you want to, your dreams can be achievable. And that's what happened. So when didn't freak out being the perfect K-Pop idol and was able to be who he was and he started chasing those dreams and saying, hey, I'm going to make your dreams reality because these are getting good. We worked together and we found out each of us canceled out each other. And our disabilities didn't matter and it was just, we could work. That's where this can be achievable, is because we know and we trust and we can understand that. This is where we are and we can keep working and we've been through so much and we can keep climbing. So it's not just the idea of where we are now, but it was because they are allowing more idols of the different cultures coming in, so yeah.

Ending Statements and Anna's Future

Amanda: Thank you so much, Anna. Before we go, do you have a name for your entertainment company that you'd like to share to the audience?

Anna: We haven't really got all of that situated. I think it's going to be Moon Entertainment cause we believe in the moon and everything and that's kind of how we symbolize everything, but we're still in the planning there. I believe that's what we're going to keep it as. So that's going to be cool.

Amanda: Well, thank you so much today, Anna. Talking with you is always amazing. I hope to have you for another podcast coming up in the future and please let any of your friends or family know who are neurodivergent that they're always welcome on this podcast as well.

Anna: Thank you.

Amanda: Thank you for listening to today's Let's Talk Autism episode. I learned so much from Anna, and I'm excited for her upcoming entertainment company she is founding with her partner. Anna's passion stems from a place of strength and love as she and her partner continue to support each other in a challenging industry and in a culture that largely excludes them. The most interesting piece for me was the dichotomy South Korea seems to have with autism, citing shows like Good Doctor and Extraordinary Attorney Woo. Both feature the caricature savant autism type, which is often used as a plot device and to make their media more palatable to international audiences. The entertainment company Anna and her partner are starting will hopefully provide a more inclusive space for disabled idols and actors and inspire further conversation about disability as a whole in South Korea. Thank you for listening and please tune in for the next episode.

Outro

Michelle: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!--Portland Community College’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the PCC Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, X-Ray 91.1 FM and 107.1 FM, and KBOO Radio 90.7 FM